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Grouper concepts

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Mar 11, 2022

Two weeks ago we discussed the idea of flagging 'grouper concepts', such as groups of anatomical locations that are not actual locations themselves, in SNOMED, as that information would be useful for translators. Monica has asked us for examples; let's collect a few here in this discussion.

Status: In discussion 648 View 1 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Mar 11, 2022. All contributions

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

For instance: 10293006 |Structure of iliac artery (body structure)|. This concept proved very confusing to our medical reviewers, who insisted there was no such structure; though they did recognise the common, the external and the internal iliac artery.

Requirement vs. Dependency

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Aug 16, 2021

As chair of the translation group, can I ask that you query the group concerning the terms "requires", "requirement for" versus "dependence", "dependence on"? We're considering what is the meaning of these terms. Are there any non-English connotations to consider? If SNOMED CT were to treat these as synonyms, would that cause a problem for any country? If not, what contexts would be appropriate for each? These are often in the finding hierarchy and describe devices, substances, an

Status: In discussion 3820 View 9 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Sep 21, 2021. All contributions

Camilla Wiberg Danielsen

klilly Please note that you have to look for other word forms also: require, requires, requirement, needs, need of, need for, dependency and perhaps more that we have not found yet.

Body Parts - Translation of 'proper'

Added by Katrien Scheerlinck on Oct 30, 2020

How do you translate body parts ending with 'proper'? For example, how do you make the distinction in the translation of 818999009 | Structure of blood vessel of abdomen (body structure) | and 787123006 | Structure of blood vessel of abdomen proper (body structure) |

Status: In discussion 711 View 1 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Apr 14, 2022. All contributions

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

Ouch, I never saw this discussion before and it was created in 2020... I know we really struggled with this as well and failed to find a single solution. Some we translated to a Latin term which includes the word 'propria'; in some cases we were able to distinguish between the 'proper' structure and its broader parent with different Dutch terms (e.g. eyeball vs eye). Abdomen cavity proper we translated to 'cavitas abdominalis', and abdominopelvic cavity to 'abdominopelviene holte'. I don't think there is a 'abdomen cavity' in SNOMED - that helps.

Trauma & injury

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Sep 28, 2020

The translation of 'injury of ...' concepts is proving pretty traumatic for us ;-) If we solely look at the term, the best translation is 'letsel'. However, nearly all 'injury' concepts are defined as traumatic, but 'letsel' is frequently not traumatic. It may be caused by tumors, operations, poison - any number of things. We could translate all these concepts as 'traumatisch letsel' and keep the meaning intact. Concepts for damage could then be translated as 'letsel'. But the healthcar

Status: In discussion 1147 View 4 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Sep 28, 2020. All contributions

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

We basically made the same choice as you, translating them to 'letsel'. But now the proposal in that QI page is to define all injury concepts with 'due to traumatic event'. Which means the relations clearly start to express the traumatic part. As you say, we are supposed to treat the FSN as the source of truth - here is an example where that doesn't seem to have worked out for us (as in, the Netherlands). mlambot In this case, you should not report them individually, but respond to that QI page, because the discussion on how to model injuries is taking place there. My colleague edegroot may also raise this issue in the content committee, if some other NRC's agree that the current proposal would cause translation problems.

Configuring Jira for untranslatable concepts

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Jul 9, 2020

Rory has created a Jira-project where we can log concepts we deem impossible to translate. How should we configure the project? How generic or specific should the issues be, which fields do we need? The project can be explored at /projects/SCTF/summary https://jira.ihtsdotools.org/projects/SCTF/summary.

Status: In discussion 3483 View 9 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Sep 22, 2020. All contributions

Marie-Alexandra Lambot

Definitely we need to be able to mark in the Jira when the problem has been passed to a CRG for investigation/solution, to which speciality group, when and have the permissions on our page set so that the people from the CRG we passed the problem to can write their answer/follow up on our pages so we know what happens to our questions without ending up sitting in all possible CRGs (even if that would not be a bad thing, it's a too time consuming one). On searchability, it would be uselful to be able to add "tags" to each issue we describe, like the hastags or hidden keywords on internet pages, especially when registering a problem touching many concepts and of which we give only an example. Better even would be if we could add all the SCTID of the concepts concerned by the described issue as hidden tag. If you don't somehow list somewhere all the concepts you register as having a problem, how will people find out that a problem has been reported upon one specific concept? And we need to be able to know how vast a problem is to correctly figure where it should be adressed and what ressources this would cost so making a true list of how many concepts are involved is important. Finding all the concepts sharing similar features can most often be found using an expression in the browser or performing word seach/NLP techniques on a DB containing the core. We should be able to upload expressions or extensional refsets thus in the SCTID field and perform searches on this field. Fields should include who reports it, but also who claims the task when there are investigations to be made on it. Dates, to be able to see since how long an issue is lying "dead". I would advocate for a built in way to contact the person who declared the issue because it's very frustrating when you stumble on a nice group page and you can't write on it because you have no permission and have no clue who to ask about it. There are also going to be issues someone has created and no-one understands. Better to be able to ask directly you queston to the "owner" of the issue. Yet we have to think carefully about not recreating here a parallel CRS... or maybe this is exactly what one needs to create, a kind of "open" multi-actors translation-related CRS that prepares, evaluates and sorts out issues that need to be pushed (or not) to the real SNOMED international CRS? This relates actually to the topic of moving toward worldwide co-authoring of SNOMED CT content.

Translation workflows

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Jul 17, 2018

The Translation Management Guidelines has a section on workflow, but the workflow it suggests may not be practical for each NRCs. We should expand it to discuss alternative workflows with their pros and cons.

Status: Resolved 2952 View 6 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last useful answer, Jul 25, 2018. All contributions

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

NRC-NL-Translation workflow.png This portrays the Dutch workflow. The translation agency has their own 3-stage workflow. The NRC adds for each concept two reviews: semantic (is the meaning correct?) and clinical (is the translation recognisable for healthcare professionals?). Conflicts between FSN and definition, and duplicate concepts, are reported to Snomed Int.; highly specialised concepts are sent to an expert pool filled with healthcare specialists from different specialisations. The disadvantage is that it is, obviously, rather more complicated and more time-consuming as each concept is seen by at least three people (translator, semantic reviewer, clinical reviewer). The advantage is that it is much easier to find clinical validators and terminologists, than to find reviewers who are both healthcare professionals and terminologist. As Snomed contains upwards of 300,000 concepts, it is unrealistic to expect Snomed enthusiasts to review the entire thing, however motivated they are. When you start hiring reviewers, you had better make your requirements realistic.

Localising translation guidelines

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Jul 17, 2018

We also need guidelines on how to create local guidelines for your translation project. What do you need to consider, what decisions do you need to make?

Status: In discussion 2222 View 8 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Sep 28, 2020. All contributions

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

Dear ovage, In the Netherlands we are compiling a partial patient-friendly translation, as a separate language reference set, using the 'Thesaurus zorg & welzijn'. This thesaurus was developed as a dictionary to translate between the professional and the ordinary citizen. The health-care related terms are where possible reviewed and approved by patient associations: associations which focus on a particular disease, are founded by chronic sufferers of that disease or relatives, whose aim is to provide knowledge and support to other patients with the same disease. SNOMED is not yet used by Dutch GP's in the Netherlands; they have had their own separate ICPC-based table for decades and are not ready to switch. We see the same disagreement as to preferred term as you do though. I think we might need a separate language reference set for GP's if we want them to use SNOMED.

Guidance on which descriptions to translate

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Jul 17, 2018

When you translate, how do you choose the preferred term? Which English descriptions do you translate: FSN, preferred term, synonyms? We will use this discussion to write new guidelines for this dilemma.

Status: In discussion 1199 View 2 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Jul 25, 2018. All contributions

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

As for which English descriptions we use as source: we have found many cases where English synonyms do not mean quite the same as the FSN, preferred term and definition. In quite a few of these cases, Snomed contained another concept that they should have been synonym of. So I would not advise someone to translate every synonym. Besides, not every English term has its equivalent in Dutch, and those languages are closely related: you couldn't do it if you wanted to. On the other hand, sometimes synonyms help us to interpret the concept. E.g. in the case of eponyms, which can be obscure or on the other hand much more well-known than the descriptive FSN. So I wouldn't ignore them either. Finally, sometimes a single word in English has two or three synonymous ways to express it in Dutch. So what we do is: we use all descriptions and the concept's definition to determine the meaning. Then we create the FSN based on our translation guidelines, add all descriptions which are commonly used in Dutch healthcare to denote the concept, and make the most usual term preferred. That means sometimes we have 0 synonyms where the core has 6, and sometimes we have 6 synonyms where th core has 0. We use all English descriptions, but only to interpret the concept.

Monthly Translation User Group meeting

Added by Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld on Jun 5, 2018

We have agreed during the first meeting to hold monthly recurring meetings from now on. We suggest Tuesday 14.00 UTC as a regular time, starting on July 10th. Are there any members in this group for whom that time is (too) inconvenient?

Status: In discussion 894 View 1 Comment Comments disabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Nov 19, 2019. All contributions

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

Dear all, Update: the frequency has been changed to a bimonthly meeting, Tuesdays 13 UTC, starting January 14th. Please send me (hielkema@nictiz.nl) your email address so I can invite you through Outlook.

Member Translation Matrix

Added by Ian Green on Apr 10, 2018

The Member Translation Matrix is provided to record details of the translation activities of SNOMED Internationsl members. Please can members complete the attached template, and post the completed template this discussion forum, to provide visibility to all members. The responses will be combined into a central matrix to provide an overview of all translation activities currently underway. (And a big thank-you to all those Members attending the session in London, and a specific thank-yo

Status: In discussion 1606 View 1 Comment Comments enabled In the category: Undefined

Comment Last contribution, Sep 7, 2018. All contributions

Emma Hultén

Hello everyone, I have made an attempt to summarize the situation in Sweden. Best regards, Emma

	Topic	Status	Author	View	Replies	Creation date	Last Reply	Contributors	Category
Discussion	Grouper concepts	In discussion	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 648	Comment 1	1646990757000 Mar 11, 2022 09:25	Mar 11, 2022 09:27	1	Undefined
Discussion	Requirement vs. Dependency	In discussion	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 3820	Comment 9	1629101729000 Aug 16, 2021 08:15	Sep 21, 2021 12:41	9	Undefined
Question	Body Parts - Translation of 'proper'	In discussion	Katrien Scheerlinck	View 711	Comment 1	1604088545000 Oct 30, 2020 20:09	Apr 14, 2022 12:36	1	Undefined
Question	Trauma & injury	In discussion	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 1147	Comment 4	1601282192000 Sep 28, 2020 08:36	Sep 28, 2020 09:58	4	Undefined
Question	Configuring Jira for untranslatable concepts	In discussion	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 3483	Comment 9	1594289346000 Jul 9, 2020 10:09	Sep 22, 2020 09:55	9	Undefined
Discussion	Translation workflows	Resolved	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 2952	Comment 6	1531813117000 Jul 17, 2018 07:38	Jul 27, 2018 08:49	6	Undefined
Discussion	Localising translation guidelines	In discussion	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 2222	Comment 8	1531812979000 Jul 17, 2018 07:36	Sep 28, 2020 09:00	8	Undefined
Discussion	Guidance on which descriptions to translate	In discussion	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 1199	Comment 2	1531812849000 Jul 17, 2018 07:34	Jul 25, 2018 06:32	2	Undefined
Question	Monthly Translation User Group meeting	In discussion	Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld	View 894	Comment 1	1528212108000 Jun 5, 2018 15:21	Nov 19, 2019 13:30	1	Undefined
Discussion	Member Translation Matrix	In discussion	Ian Green	View 1606	Comment 1	1523373518000 Apr 10, 2018 15:18	Sep 7, 2018 07:43	1	Undefined

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Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

Camilla Wiberg Danielsen

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Marie-Alexandra Lambot

Feikje Hielkema-Raadsveld

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Emma Hultén

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