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Date  20170928

1600-1730 UTC 

Zoom Meeting Details

SNOMED Int'l Editorial Advisory group  

SNOMED International - Editorial advisory group conference call  
 UTC  

Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.  

https://snomed.zoom.us/j/874963309

Observers:

 

 

Apologies

 

Objectives

  • Obtain consensus on agenda items

Discussion items

ItemDescriptionOwnerNotesDiscussionAction
1Call to order and role callJCA



 

2Conflicts of interestJCANone.
 
3Change of name for genetic diseasesJCA

Based on requests from UKTC:

The concepts are 
726018006|Autosomal dominant medullary cystic kidney disease (disorder)|
723373006|Autosomal dominant medullary cystic kidney disease with hyperuricemia (disorder)|
726017001|Autosomal dominant medullary cystic kidney disease without hyperuricemia (disorder)|

The FSN for these concepts align with Orphanet, OMIM and Genetics Home Reference.  The request from the UKTC is 

All terms should ideally be replaced by autosomal dominant tubulointerstitial kidney disease (ADTKD) (see KDIGO report). The above terms are not necessarily the same and don’t really reflect the improved clinical descriptions of the disease based on genetics. ADTKD reflects the inheritance, common phenotype caused by different mutations and can be used for suspected cases. This is well described in the KDIGO report. They also make the point it is a simple term to use and that MCKD is frankly inaccurate!

As above. I would favour not using these terms MCKD 1 and 2 even though they may be commonly used at present. ADTKD-UMOD or ADTKD-MUC1 would be the preferred names. The list of genes is also increasing making a single term more appropriate.

ADTKD would be the parent and the children would be ADTKD associated with UMOD mutations and ADTKD associated with MUC1 mutations.

It is anticipated that this type of request will become more frequent as the move towards genomics continues.

Question: Do we go with the current naming convention to align with Orphanet (our current "Source of truth") or try to keep pace with the evolving nature of content in this area? Do we change the FSN or inactivate and replace?



4Procedure with clinical focus vs. Procedure for indicationJCA

 This was initiated from a request for “Reduction of soft tissue for auricular prosthesis”.  There is currently the concept 410771003|   Surgical procedure for clinical finding and/or disorder (procedure), which has 156 direct descendents.  The use of the HAS FOCUS attribute allows for the reason for the procedure to be modeled.  A recent set of diagnostic imaging procedures that included the reason the procedure was being done resulted in an editorial decision to disallow the future addition of precoordinated reasons for procedure.  Recent discussions with editors have questioned whether this is necessary given the spate of requests for this type of concept. 

Concerns from the HoT include:

1) the potential high number of precoordinated terms that would be created if every reason for a procedure were allowed;

2) the reason for a procedure should be captured as a separate clinical finding to document that the “diagnosis” has been established. Precoordinating the reason precludes the need for separately documenting that the condition exists in the patient;

3) some reasons provided for procedures may be so vague as to provide little additional information.  


 

45"Primary" prioceduresJCA

Primary procedures – what is the use case for calling out a procedure as “primary” when we have the “unstatused” procedure? https://jira.ihtsdotools.org/browse/PCP-81 (currently closed as pattern not allowed).  The current block to addition of these types of terms was challenged by the UK. Discussion points:

  • A primary procedure can only be performed once.  All other procedures of the same type for the same condition at the same site can be considered a revision.
  • A revision procedure is not performed the same way as the original procedure as the site and the condition have been altered due to the primary procedure.
  • There are existing concepts the differentiate a “complete” procedure from a partial procedure or revision.
  • While the existing procedure terms are not explicit about their “primary” nature, it is implied that when a procedure concept is used, it represents the first time that this procedure has been performed at this site, for this condition.   
  • The lack of an explicit revision status (anything other than the initial procedure) implies its primary nature

For these reasons, the addition of “primary” procedures either makes existing procedures ambiguous ( they can mean procedures with any revision status), or they become abstract grouper concepts, that should not be used in clinical records, or they represent two ways to represent “primary” procedures.

Ancillary question: There are currently 415 "Primary X (procedure)" concepts. If this pattern were disallowed, what would we do with the existing content? There are a number of concepts of this type that serve as ancestors for concepts related to the first stage of a multi-stage surgical regime.


 

56"Apps" as devicesJCA/IGR

A question related to the SI position on the classification of "Apps" as devices. ISO has recently developed guidance on this, stating that computer programmes/Apps are for all intents and purposes medical devices if used for medical purposes.

What should be the SI position on this? Modeling impacts?



67ECE UpdateBGO
  • Complications and sequlea
  1. A complication is a disorder due to another disorder, procedure or event which is unanticipated and not the natural progression of the initiating condition.
  2. Complications are defined in terms of temporal and or causal relationships to an initial disorder, procedure or event. The default temporal relationship for complications is during and/or after and should not be represented in the model unless a specific temporal relationship such as during is mentioned. Likewise, a causal relationship is inherent in the definition of complication but may not be specified i.e postoperative complication.
  3. Should the during and/or after attribute be retained?
  4. A sequela is a disorder that comes after another disorder, procedure or event.
  5. Some disorders may be both complications and sequelae.
  • Sepsis/Sepsis-associated organ dysfunction.

The third International Consensus Definitions for Sepsis and Septic Shock (Sepsis-3) published in 2016 state sepsis is a multi organ dysfunction syndrome due to an infection. Proposed model isA MODS co-ocurrent and due to infectious disease. Ensuing discussion brings up the following points which need to be resolved:

1. Organ dysfunction can persist after infection resolves, therefore not necessarily co-occurrent and thus co-occurrent and due to modelling pattern may not be appropriate.
2. Should sepsis be considered a kind of infectious disease? If so then another model would utilize pathological process infectious process to capture infectious disease as an additional parent.
3. Is a pathological process of infectious process correct for sepsis or is dysregulated host response a better pathological process to define sepsis?

Certain arthritis conditions can be represented as a joint inflammation as well as a systemic/multisystem disorder. In SNOMED they are modeled in terms of the joint inflammation This could give rise to inheritance issues if fully modeled when calling out specific manifestations of the multisystem disorder (e.g.193250002 |Myopathy due to rheumatoid arthritis (disorder)| .

Proposed model was to use specific artery/vein thrombosis concepts as value of due to along with an associated morphology of 78195007 |Occlusive thrombus (morphologic abnormality). Issue raised that occlusive thrombus (morphologic abnormality) as residing in role group 0 would refer to theCVA rather than the thrombosis. Suggested solution is to create specific occlusive artery/vein thrombosis concepts as the value of due to. Same parents inferred as original model. Question of need to revise model as it would require creating many new precoordinated classes.

  • Allergy/hypersensitivity

Input from Allergy-hypersensitivity clinical reference group
"The term "pseudoallergy" is obsolete as discrete pathophysiologic mechanisms have been identified". Recommendation is to replace with non-allergic hypersensitivity which will align more closely with WAO/EAAAI nomenclature. Question as to whether more specific pathophysiologic mechanisms should be represented in model.



















8

7

Findings related to skin woundsJCA

A number of requests related to findings related to surgical skin wounds and pressure injury findings reveal an issue with current structure.  Most of the requested terms are Findings related to skin wounds, but currently 262526004 |Wound of skin (disorder)|is a disorder, so cannot be used as a parent for findings related to skin wounds.  There is currently 225552003 |Wound finding (finding)|, but it is not specific to skin.  262526004 |Wound of skin (disorder)|currently has 65 immediate subtypes, many of which could reasonably be viewed as findings (e.g. “Abrasion of X”).  

Need to make a determination of whether observations related to wounds (i.e. color, discharge, odor) should be placed in a subhierarchy different from the "Wound (disorder)" itself.


 
89 Specimen from subjects other than the patient JCA

Currently we have many concepts in the specimen hierarchy that include “from patient”as well as those that do not include it as an ancestor.  Since the subject of record is the default for specimens, we would like to retire these apparent duplicates, but then we run into the problem of specimens derived from other sources such as donors or normal control patients. 

They cannot be subtypes if the intended meaning is “subject of record”..or can they, since the context is implied?  How do we structure the specimen hierarchy to account for this? 

What are the analytical implications of having different sources for specimens as subtypes of one another?


 
911Use of the Oxford comma in FSNsJCA

The Oxford comma is a comma added after the penultimate term in a list, e.g. For example "Disorder of head, neck, and shoulders". The purpose if its use is to make explicit the fact that the terms are part of a list. The editorial guide is silent about its use, but the example provided does not use the Oxford comma.

There are currently 347 FSNs in SNOMED CT that use the Oxford comma. Most of these are terms obtained from other terminology, such as ICD and nursing. There are 2500 FSNs that contain comma delimited lists, but do not use the Oxford comma.

Should SNOMED CT be consistent in the use of this grammar mark or maintain fidelity to the original source of the terms that do use it?



12Future meetingsJCA

SNOMED International Business Meeting - Bratislava, Slovakia. Full day meeting Tuesday October 17.